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May 17, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06
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#41 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Diego, CA US
Guild: SoF
Profession: Mo/
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Whew...just finished reading this whole thread...what gets to me is that this whole debate really seems to be about damage per sec and it almost really centers on Ranger vs Warrior. Why are we all using the Ranger vs Warrior sample as the main basis for the effectiveness of a Ranger? Rangers were never really designed to go toe to toe against Warriors, nor were they designed to be competitive in a dps contest against a Warrior. The Ranger is simply an effective character, and I don't see how having a competent Ranger on any PVP team is negative.
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May 17, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09
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#42 |
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Apr 2005
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wait so you mean rangers cant own like LEGOLAS?!?! OMG BRB RETURNING GUILD WARS!
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May 17, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57
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#43 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: R/Me
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Quote:
 , but this is EXACLTY where you go the wrong way... I could say this as well: Take a disruptive ranger and a warrior and let them fight a boss which does elemental damage, see who takes the LEAST damage, the ranger wins that easily... disrupting the boss and with extra elemental defence... Sure its an unfair battle, but so is the same with ur example, rangers arent ment to deal the most DPS... |
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May 17, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31
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#44 | |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
I need to say this again... and again... and I guess again. My "examples" or rather in my case experience showed me that the game is easier both in PvP and PvE with a warrior, monk and elementalist. I haven't played a mesmer or necro with any real time so those were left out of my examples. After playing the other classes (I play the classes up through PvE environments and I don't just jump in with PvP templates), my original statement stands... I found the ranger class to be disappointing compared to the others. The warrior takes less damage and deals more, the elementalist smacks damage down better than any class I have seen so far killing things so quick that healing is almost an after thought, the monk... its a monk... practically heal until the monsters/players run out of juice. I have played with and against mesmers and find them either a boon when playing with or a bane when playing against in PvP. Have no idea how they do in PvE. I have seen only two posts in here that give specific examples of skills that make the ranger run well. One included barrage, which I conceed and hope raise the ranger overall survivablilty in the game (I don't have barrage yet). The other I plan on trying some of the combinations to see if it helps. I have noticed that the posts with the specifics have generally not disagreed with my statement lending me to think that it isn't just me that has noticed a ranger issue. |
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May 17, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36
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#45 | |
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
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Quote:
You are ignoring the fact that the game isn't played as "I hit you, you hit me" but is evolving and flowing combat. When you just need that bit more damage to finish a guy the ranger can deliver it; he can pull pursuit off a player with a pin down, he can shut down casters or warriors, he's got it all. He's not the best at any given aspect of it, but pretty effective overall. My only complaint is the lousy pet controls and the uselessness of carrying Comfort Animal and Charm Animal if you bother with a pet. Merge the two skills, so that Charm Animal acts as Comfort Animal while you have a pet along, and is a charm only if you have given up your animal. |
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May 17, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48
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#46 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: R/Me
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No but why do you keep imagining a ranger should do DAMAGE... this game is not about all damage...
A ranger is a supporter... Say ur team is fighting PvE PvP doesnt matter, and there is a monk which is nasty, you can interupt... sure the mesmer can do it too, but what if he's busy with other enemies... What if your warrior is bashing in on someone but JUST doesnt get the edge to kill the guy (he heals himself), the ranger can help him out with some powerful shots What if hte monk is chased by a warrior... ranger uses pin down + hunter shot What if there is a clustered group of enemies... ranger can pull them... And i cant point out how many times ive been the last man standing (mainly in PvE because i had sucky teams in PvP who let the warrior bash in on me without doing anything), and used some defensive skill to get away and return later to rez my party... Its all in the support mate, i dont see a warrior do all this... EDIT: i guess Epinephrine got a earlier reply but he states about the same as i do... |
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May 17, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57
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#47 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Quote:
I think most people in this thread agree with each other, including Straegen who started the whole debate. Playing a Ranger is harder than playing a Warrior, particularly if you're accustomed to/comfortable with straightforward run-up-and-hit-things gameplay. He found that disappointing. Others do not. |
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May 17, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16
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#48 | ||||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
At the rangers best he is on par with a warrior and that is when things are going right. When things go wrong a ranger drops fast. I played my ranger up through the levels and I have experience here. I played my warrior up through those same levels and life was much easier. That said this is getting into a which class is better and that wasn't my point. My point is that at a whole the ranger just doesn't seem as powerful or easy as the other classes I have tried so far. That and my observation that rangers are last or near last on the "we need a" list has me believing that rangers could use a bit of a bump. Quote:
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The belief at large in the game stands... no one I know looks for a ranger to complete a group. As I stated earlier, I haven't seen a message asking for rangers in the game yet... this is not true for monks, ele and warrior. I would just as soon not have a ranger in my party when going in for PvP. |
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May 17, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39
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#49 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: May 2005
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/topic hijack
Epinephrine...are you in the dental field? *eyes the lido carpule* |
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May 18, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42
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#50 | ||||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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Our point is that the Ranger isn't about power, nor is it about being easy to play. A Ranger is a difficult profession to play effectively, and many who enjoy being a Ranger prefer the challenge of it. Quote:
Warriors bash, Monks heal, Elementalists nuke, Mesmers cause chaos, Necros call the undead, Rangers... well they have a pet and a bow. Quote:
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May 18, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53
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#51 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2005
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A damage ranger gets very very close to damage output of an elementalist
Plus they can have skills like debilitating and distracting shot in there for a more all-purpose approach and of course traps and other wilderness moves as a further supplement.Before the Tigers Fury nerf in one of the last 2 BWEs Rangers could actually outdamage elementalists (not in terms of spike but constant damage) assuming barrage did not hit multiple targets and when it did their damage output skyrocketed. They are still comparable now it's just they can't keep tigers fury up 100% of the time like before without a heavy amount in beastmastery that cannot be spared. I don't know where everyone is finding Rangers to be doing such pathetic damage. It's not all too difficult: just make sure you have a short/flat/half moon bow, 13-14 expertise, 12 marksmanship, something like a conjure or judges insight, favorable winds, tigers fury, dual shot, and barrage or incendiary arrows and you're set
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May 18, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33
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#52 | |||||
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Academy Page
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
Direct damage generally doens't win matches, lowering the other teams dps does. The best teams run coordinated monks effectively reducing the other teams dps to 0. Good teams usually run one or more mesmers to counter this otherwise the monks will keep damage from your team to at or near zero. I understand PvP and what it takes to win in it... I may only be an average PvP'r, but I know communication, teamwork and complimentary builds is what wins the day. Generally speaking, rangers don't fit into the later part of that equation. I know of one build that is effective and another one I have seen tried and failed, but has promise. Again as a whole, rangers are seen as the weaker classes in PvP... let me know the last time a ranger was selected as a primary target and I will show you a team of nothing but rangers. Quote:
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My comments were and are stacking the ranger up to the other classes as a whole in overall effectiveness not in one single area. Anyone can name a scenario where class A is better than class B. Several people here threw their blinders on and started blindly defending the ranger. Its not that I disagree with a lot of the points here (such as barrage which reads great, but I haven't been able to try it yet and I noted this). It is just that after playing the ranger and then other classes I find it a harder class to keep alive and it does move slower for me through the PvE environments. As far as PvP, I couldn't find many good PvP'rs that wanted to team up because the perception (right or wrong) is that rangers don't give a group an edge like an ele, mesmer or monk (my experience has born this out as well). Overall and I repeat overall... I find the ranger to be disappointing. It reads great on paper, but the in game life in my opinion is not as well built as it is for other classes. I found several ranger skills little to no use, healing skills to be less than useful, beast skills that don't work well, expertise that doesn't support the secondary class, and attack skills that don't offer a lot of extra damage. Penetrating Attack and Hunters shot are probably the best outright attacks (speed/cost/dps) with dual shot/barrage/incendeiary arrows probably the PvE group attacks. Next on my list is LightRef which is a VERY good skill, but with those on my bar I am not as effective either in a supporting role or a damage role as other classes. |
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May 18, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34
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#53 | |
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
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I agree with you on many points Straegen -
Beastmastery needs work. Not worth talking about really right now, though I am trying to make it work (not too bad in PvE with 4 pet skills on my bar, but I'd really like to see Charm and Comfort merged, or at a minimum have pets resurrectable by monks - then I could drop comfort and rely on the monk to heal/res him, and gain a skill slot back.) It has a few golden skills, and I am hoping to make them count in an odd build I am working on, but it really isn't a competitive line that I can see. Then again, it has worked for me in PvE, surprisingly. I figure if I can get the elite ferocious strike I can give it a go. Expertise does not work well with other classes, excepting warriors to some extent. Non-expertise ranger skills are available to non-primary rangers and thus don't enter into the issue, excepting that people don't tend to use them and they have improved effieciency in the hands of those with expertise.. This I disagree with Quote:
So why use a ranger primary? 1.) Armour and energypool - better than any vs elemental, better than casters vs physical, and 3 pips/ up to a 31 energy base in Druid's armour. (Btw, the absorption is 2 points for the special warrior armour, so it is hard to come up with an equivalent in terms of AL as it varies by damage done - however, it doesn't seem to stack with the runes of absorption anyway, so you are maxed out at taking a superior rune along to get 3 points reduction anyway; vs 30 damage coming in that's 10%, which is the equivalent of 6 or so armour - it's obviously better vs lower amounts of damage, worse against higher, but it is pretty small no matter what) 2.) Expertise. Yup, it doesn't blend well with secondaries - that's why rangers seem to concentrate so heavily on their ranger skills. It is efficient however, and allows good sustainable dps even in a low energy environment, and even vs adrenaline shutdown such as soothing images etc... 3.) Damage selection. Dealing damage is good, delivering it where it is needed is better. Warriors waste dps running to a target - if I yell for help getting a damage spike to happen I want the damage now, not in 5 seconds or more when the warrior staggers over, and a ranger can easily switch targets and deliver some quick damage. I don't care what your dps is when you are against someone who is inconsequential, you need to hit the targets that need hitting. (to elaborate, if you had a spell that did 160 damage in a blast split 8 ways (20 per opposing player) or a 150 damage spell at the same cost and recharge hitting the one I want, I'll take the 150 even though it's fewer dps. ) 4.) Energy. If you argue that damage is what PvP is all about I'll go meta-damage and talk about energy and making skills function. In that case it comes down to disruption as a possible way of reducing their dps, and rangers have disruption (so do mesmers and hammer warriors, but that's off topic). Rangers have skills that make for good disruption abilities. Their Distracting shot, choking gas, debilitating shot etc are not bad at all. Debilitating shot is a horrible skill for a non-ranger, as you spend 10 energy to maybe drain 10 energy - sounds like Ether Lord, ranger version. With expertise however it can be as efficient as spending 4 energy to drain 10, every 5 seconds (with a zealous bow that's 3 energy) allowing one of the most effiicient energy shutdowns in the game - 10 per 5 seconds is the equivalent of nearly 7 pips, so it is overkill, and spending 3 per 5 seconds is under 2 pips, so you actually have nearly a 5 pip energy advantage while making this skill count. Can't complain about that. Expertise is the key to making it work though - without expertise it's a waste, and many of the ranger skills are like that. Knocking a skill out for 20 seconds is candy; being able to do it while at a range for next to no energy is just sweet. I hate trying to time interrupts to important spells - in PvE it's easy, you know what spells they'll use roughly, you watch for the healing signet etc... and drop the distracting shot on it. At 2 points per shot though, every 10 seconds, you are pretty safe just interspersing it against a monk type; Most monks are in a constant state of casting, and you'll hit something  At a 5 cost it might not be worth using, but for 2 energy how can you say no? If I hit a bread and butter monk skill like Orison I can cut the monk's healing ability by half or so. The quick recycle time and the fact that you can deny them energy within the same skill set means that I don't need to worry about shutting down the big spell, there won't be one - I just need to watch for the heals and try to hit one. After all, he's losing energy every 5 second, in between I just need to nail his Orison and it's sayonara. I will not say that Rangers are damage kings, I don't thin kthey are except maybe circumstantially, but then the award would go to mesmers, who are insane circumstantial damage dealers. They are good team players who are often overlooked, and who can be hard to kill. /off topic reply Oh, and no, I am not in dentistry, I did masters in neuroscience (though none of my work was on epinephrine, it was more focussed on ischaemia and epilepsy) and currently do statistics in health for government. Last edited by Epinephrine; May 18, 2005 at 02:51 PM // 14:51.. |
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May 18, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28
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#54 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Thank you, Epinephrine, for the articulate reply with which I entirely agree.
I think the point has been made here that a Ranger is only effective in the right hands with the right style of gameplay. Unfortunately, most players out there, particularly in PvP, don't really understand their ranger and are playing it more like a warrior with a 20-foot swing. It's taken me a long time to learn that you don't HAVE to stick to a target until it's dead. Indeed, it's better to be working on the opposing team as a whole with various disruptions, bleeds etc and let your warriors and eles finish them off. I say this entirely self-consciously, because I'm certainly not at the level of gameplay that I want to be, and occasionally I'll get flustered and bumble into warrior-mode. And then die. It's frickin HARD to do. But I've seen it in action, I've achieved it at times in the right team, and it's a joy to play. Straegen, I think your disappointment is entirely valid. Not all builds are for all people. I'd probably be disappointed in a Monk because I prefer to focus on the enemy than on my team-mates, but I haven't tried yet so I can't say for sure. I've tried the warrior, though, and found the gameplay to be pretty boring and repetitive, even though it did more damage and I progressed more quickly. So I guess you could call that disappointment, too. I prefer the precision and difficulty of not just playing a ranger, but playing a ranger RIGHT. You're measuring effectiveness in-game, and we're measuring enjoyment meta-game. Besides, we have 6 months until the next expansion, right? I'll take my time and savor the journey - the game's big, but it's not THAT big, and there's a lot to learn. |
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May 18, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39
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#55 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Diego, CA US
Guild: SoF
Profession: Mo/
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Epinephirne - Informative and Impressive breakdown!
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May 19, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44
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#56 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I think this post is intersting because I felt the same way when I first build my ranger. "Man! These guys cant put out damage as hard or as fast as these other builds. Rangers must be gimped. They need fix'in."
I play a r/e hoping that I would be a major damage dealer. As it turns out, it seemed I only supported the damage that was really being done by warriors or some other class. As a means to be useful I found that watching the battlefield and hiting the right enemy at the right time was far more effective. Now I dont play a damage dealing ranger. I play a support role that looks for targets then shuts them down. My teams mates get a better ranger now that I dont consentrate on damage but instead, I scan the battle and pop the biggest threat I can find. And like its been said in the post here before, ..no one knows what your doing to contribute as a ranger if you do your job well. The team takes less damage and the foes drop faster and it seems like only I know that I stopped meteors, earthquakes or healing on top of healing etc. The ranger class is under appreshated because of the lack of obivous flash or damage. Going unnoticed goes to thier advantage. And once you find its nitch its really gradifying. As a support character, I know what to do, and Im glad I didnt give up after my first disappointment with his damage skills. Although! Ive read (havent actually seen) some great builds that compete with elementist for fast and ferious damage. In short, for me, rangers are...slower on damaging. Probably a harder character to get some henchies or PUG and be successful in tougher missions. But in a good team. They really can turn the tide. Also, it seems odd to me that people often par up warriors vs. rangers and not rangers vs. elementist. It seems kind of obvious that good warrior would be more successful in beating a good ranger on average. But just as true a good elementist would have a hell of a time taking out a good ranger. And damn! a good elementist would probably have a significant advantage over a good warror due to warriors low magic armor and elementist water and lightning spells. I think the game set up that way. Like a scissors, paper, rocks type balance for classes. Last edited by Goonter; May 19, 2005 at 05:53 AM // 05:53.. |
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May 19, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32
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#57 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
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May 19, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02
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#58 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
This is not what I had hoped for when I made my ranger, but I can see now that this is how they were designed and I'm trying to adjust to suit this but I still kind of think it sucks. 
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May 19, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15
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#59 | |
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Pirate?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Guild: Idiot Savants
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Troll Unguent on the other hand IS awful. If you have to heal yourself (as a ranger) in a PvP match, you need to find a new team. Also, +9 Regen is only reached with quite a few points in Wilderness Survival. If your build supports that... then great, but not all of them do. My R/N for example has zero points in Wilderness Survival... making Troll Unguent a mere +3 regen over 10 seconds... hardly worth raving about. Not to mention, it has a 3 second casting rate... this, above all things, kills this skill. 3 Seconds in PvP is pretty long... depending on the results. Something like Rend Enchantments, for example, is well worth it's 3 second casting time... +9 Health Regen with a lot of Wilderness Survival for 10 seconds of self healing... isn't worth it at all. Not to mention, it's taking up a valuable skill spot that could be put to better use.
__________________
Show Some Beta Love! |
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May 29, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13
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#60 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2005
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Quote:
I combine Poison Arrow, a preparation (usually Ignite Arrows), Tiger's Fury for speed, an interrupt skill (Distracting Shot or Concussion Shot), and Barbed and Flame traps all at once to adapt to many situations and still do high-end damage for a ranger. And the attributes that feed these skills are all 11 to 13 (except Tiger's Fury, but 6 seconds of stance and 4 seconds of down time is fine with me), so I'm not spreading my skills thin. Antidote Signet and Whirling Defense switch out as needed. 13 Expertise (10 + major rune + mask) 12 Marksmanship: (11 + minor rune) 11 Wilderness Survival: (10 + minor rune) Toss in a vigor rune to offset the health penalty, of course. |
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